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The Walsh Ranch and Spanish Land Grants In South Bexar County - 5:05 PM, 5/9/2008

The Walsh Ranch and Spanish Land Grants in South Bexar County

Bernard Pyron

In 1794, Juan Ignacio Perez de Casanova, a Canary Islander in what is now San Antonio, received a Spanish Land Grant of about 4,428 acres of brush country land between Leon Creek and the Medina River. There he built "El Rancho Grande," or, as he called it, El Rancho de la Purisima Concepcion.

On Juan Ignacio's death in October of 1823, his son, Jose Ignacio Perez, took over the ranch.

The web site http://bexargenealogy.com/islanders/perez.html says that the Béxareños, or Canary Islander family of Perez, married into the Linn and then the Walsh family. "Jose Ignacio Perez, the son of Colonel Perez, was born in 1786 and

married Maria Josefa Cortinas in 1812. Their daughter, Maria Josefa Perez married Jacob Linn who arrived in Texas from Germany about 1833

and was orphaned shortly after his arrival. Their daughter Concepcion

Linn married Frank T. Walsh..."

The sign that stood at the gate to the Walsh Ranch until Toyota took in down says the ranch existed since 1794. At the very bottom below, see the Walsh Ranch gate sign.

In the formula Range War western novel, an insider villain who plays the role
of a respected banker, rancher or business man steals lands belonging to others.
The insider-respected villain is in secret the head of a Yahoo Outlaw gang he
uses as enforcers. Henry Cisneros in the San Antonio and South Bexar County Range War Western
of 1990-91 stole a large part of the Walsh ranch. The city bureaucracy, and the Bexar
county courts and sheriff must have played the role of the Yahoo
Outlaw enforcers.

The web site http://corridornews.blogspot.com/2004/10/texas-has-higher-level-of-concern.html

says "Just ask Elizabeth Small, whose grandfather was Edward Patrick Walsh.
The Walsh Ranch along the Medina River had been in the family since
the Spanish granted the land to them in 1794. Then in the late 1980s,
the City decided it wanted a large piece of Walsh property to build a
giant mosquito bog, the Applewhite Reservoir. Edward Walsh encountered
then-mayor Henry Cisneros in an elevator in a local hospital and was
told, "We're gonna get your ranch." Mrs Small is quoted in this article as saying
"In 1991, the condemnation was very rough on the family," says Small,
who grew up on the ranch. "We were told the only thing the land was
good for was for tire recycling or trailer parks. Then suddenly it was
too valuable to sell back to us, and they were using taxes to condemn
our property."

I am not sure yet
when Frank T. Walsh married Concepcion Linn. But whenever the

Walsh name was attached to the ranch, the 4,428 acres of the
Perez 1794 Spanish Land grant, or a large part of it, stayed intact in
the hands of this one family from 1794 until 1991 when Mayor Henry
Cesneros and the city of
San Antonio took a chunk from the ranch along the Medina River.

The large Walsh Ranch was in South Bexar county, the poor relative of San Antonio and the northwestern suburbs. Because the Walsh children did not attend school in Somerset, about eight miles southwest of the southwestern corner of the ranch, I did not know the Walsh family when I was growing up in the area. But William Pyron Kinney, known as Billy, my first cousin, hunted with one of the Walsh men.

On receiving a copy of my article "Coyote Hunters of the Quesenberry,"

my second cousin in Somerset, Patricia Kinney

Anderson, wrote me that "Daddy had dogs also, and when I married Webb

we had dogs for ten years. I cooked mush, corn meal and grease, for

them in a big black pot behind the house. We hunted with Luther James,

Mr. Bruce from Lytle and Cecil Walsh (whose family owned land where

Toyota is now.)"

"Daddy" is my first cousin, Billy Kinney, the oldest grandchild of A.M. and

Virginia Pyron. I am the youngest My grandparents came to South

Bexar county in 1882 from Lavaca county and bought a section adjoining

what became Somerset.. Webb, Patricia Kinney Anderson's former

husband, is the son of

John McCain, a regular in the group of coyote hunters I wrote about.

Cecil Walsh was a first cousin of Edward Patrick Walsh. His widow, Mary

Louise Walsh, now 96, told me on the phone in November of 2006 that Cecil

Walsh came to visit them once as a boy and wanted to live on the Walsh ranch

and did live there. She said that Cecil had a pack of coyote hounds and ran

them on the ranch. Once, she told, Cecil's dogs got on the trail of what she

called a "wild cat" near the Medina and they wouldn't have anything to

do with that

cat. It might have been a panther. There were panthers in the Quesenberry in

the late thirties. I remember hearing one scream when as a child I was on a

coyote hunt but in the back seat of our Model A.

Mary Louise Walsh is named as Executrix of the Estate of Edward Patrick Walsh

on the December 9, 1991 Condemnation Judgment issued by Judge Polly Jackson

Spencer, Bexar county, Texas Probate Court Number One.

The Walsh Ranch case got me interested in Texas Land Patents and then

in federal Land Patents. At least up until 30 or 40 years ago a federal Land

Patent could have stopped a government from taking land by Eminent Domain.

The federal courts had for many years consistently upheld Land Patents

as conveying absolute ownership of land, as opposed to the neo-feudal

land ownership we have today with the deed and title insurance.

The article below on federal Land Patents is at:

http://truth.tc/information/LandPatentsAndAllodialTitles.html

"The legislative acts, the Statutes at Large, enacted to divest the

United States of its land and to sell that land to the true sovereigns

of this republic, had very distinct intents. Congress recognized that

the average settler of this nation would have little money, therefore

Congress built into the patent, and its corresponding act, the

understanding that these lands were to be free from avarice and

cupidity, free from the speculators who preyed on the unsuspecting

nation, and forever under the control and ownership of the freeholder,

who by the sweat of his brow made the land produce."

This article is saying that the system of land ownership we have today

has replaced the federal Land Patent with deeds, abstracts of title and title

insurance which, in effect, allow the government to be the sovereign in land

ownership just as the English King was sovereign before the Revolutionary

War. Therefore, a city, county, state or federal government can take any land

the government wants to take by condemnation lawsuits in courts by use of

Eminent Domain.

Deeds, abstracts and title insurance are legally what historically has been

called "color of law." Its an appearance of law, but not real law. The deed

does not convey absolute ownership of land and title insurance only protects

the lender or the "owner" from claims by others. It does not protect land

ownership against taking of the land by government for any purpose the

government claims.

All land was originally passed into private hands by Land Patents. In Texas

the Republic of Texas passed down land ownership to individuals by

Texas Land Patents. When Texas became a state in 1845-46 it kept

ownership of its

public lands and continued to issue Texas Land Patents as it had done when it

was the Republic of Texas. But I have found no history of cases in the

Texas courts

using Texas Land Patents to stop foreclosure or taking of land by a government.

There are many such cases in the federal courts, but on the strict

issue of Texas Land Patents the federal courts have no jurisdiction.

As far as I know the Texas

legislature never put teeth into Texas Land Patents. Even in the 19th

century when

the value of land patents was known by the people and probably by the Texas

courts, the legislature apparently did not give strength to Texas Land

Patents. During the last half of the 20th century the Texas

Legislature was probably less

likely to have enacted legislation giving Texas Land Patents authority over

Eminent Domain because elite influence had gown in Texas by that time, and few

Texans knew what Land Patents were..

Although its very difficult now to get the federal courts to uphold the original

intent of federal land patents, the patents were uphold again and again in

earlier years, even in the 20th century. The Beggerly case is famous as a

case involving a federal land patent. Beggerly acquired ownership of about 700

acres on Horn island off the southeast coast of Mississippi in 1950 and in

1979 the feds decided they wanted the Beggerly land for a kind of park. They

told Beggerly his deed was worthless and just took the land. The

federal Bureau of

Land Management refused to accept the land patent Beggerly found in their

possession. he took the case to the lower federal court in southern

Mississippi

and lost. Then he appealed to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals where he won.

The Appeals Court said the Bureau of Land Management wronged him by not

doing a better search for the land patent and the court over-ruled the statute

of limitations and treated the Beggerly appeal as a new case.

The Slick Willie regime appealed to the Supreme Court which should not have

heard the case. the Supreme Court did not rule on the issue of the power of

the land patent to protect against Eminent Domain. Instead, it ruled

on the issue

of the statute of limitations which had run out by the time Beggerly got to the

Appeals Court. In 1998 the Supreme Court threw the case back to a lower

federal court, and probably Beggerly never got any money from the feds and

lost his 700 acres.

The 5th Circuit Court of Appeals followed the intent of federal Land Patents

in legislation and in many federal court decisions upholding the power of

Land patents. the Supreme Court dealt a blow to this intent by use of

the statute of limitations.

I found one case of a 19th century trial in a Texas court involving a

Texas Land Patent which said that the state of Texas granted Land

Patents to holders

of Spanish Land Grants. But this case was about a boundary dispute and not about

a government in Texas taking private land for its purposes.

Nevertherless, it appears that Texas did grant Texas Land Patents to

holders of Spanish Land Grants or to their heirs or assigns.

The Texas General Land Office in Austin has an online serivice that

enables one to find the grantee of a Texas Land Patent if he has the

abstract number of the land.

I saw a list of Bexar county land certificates which included the Ignacio

Perez Spanish Land grant of about 4,400 acres in 1794 between the Medina

River and the leon Creek. Its abstract numer 13, and the same number, 13,

appears on the land description in the condemnation document of the Bexar

county probate court in 1991 taking that part of the Walsh Ranch along the

Medina for the city of San Antonio.

But - the Texas General Land Office online search did not come up

with the Texas land patent when I typed in number 13.

For several other pieces of Bexar county land, the online search did

come up with the Texas Land Patent, as follows:

http://wwwdb.glo.state.tx.us/central/LandGrants/LandGrants.cfm?intID=148486

BELOW IS THE GEORGE W. MUDD 320 ACRES deeded to

A..M. Pyron in 1882

County: Bexar

Abstract Number:

514

District/Class: Bexar 3rd

File Number: 003280

Original Grantee: Mudd, George W

Patentee: Mudd, George W

Title Date:

Patent Date: 17 Oct 1859

Patent No: 136

Patent Vol: 28

Certificate: Pre 2

Part Section:

Survey/Blk/Tsp:

Acres: 320

http://wwwdb.glo.state.tx.us/central/LandGrants/LandGrants.cfm?intID=148298

THIS IS THE GEORGE W. HAYDEN 320 ACRES, deeded

to A.M. Pyron in 1882. Another 320 acres of the A.M. Pyron 640

acres is out of the George W. Mudd survey, which has a different

abstract number.

The November 24, 1934 deed from Virginia Pyron, widow of A.M. Pyron, to my

father Blake B. Pyron for 63 acres lists, both the Mudd Survey Number

273 and the Hayden Survey Number 274. A January 17, 1948 deed from

Blake B. and Mabel Pyron to W.P. Kinney - for the same 63 acres -

lists only the G. W. Mudd

Survey Number 273. The deed also says that this 63 acres, known as

tract six, is part of a 349.2 acre tract of the A.M. Pyron lands.

A.M. Pyron owned 349 acres at his death in 1932 out of his original

640 acres.

At some time when W. P. Kinney died, the 63 acres was inherited by William

Pyron Kinney, (Billy Kinney), and at his death in the nineties,

his daughter

Patricia Kinney Anderson inherited the 63 acres along with the 63 acres that had

belonged to her grandmother, my aunt, Jessie Pyron Kinney. So a good part of

the original A.M. Pyron lands acquired in 1882 has stayed in one

family. Apparently, the Texas land patent for this land is the 1859

George W. Mudd patent.

County: Bexar

Abstract Number:

326

District/Class: Bexar 3rd

File Number: 003282

Original Grantee: Hayden, George W

Patentee: Hayden, George W

Title Date:

Patent Date: 24 Apr 1862

Patent No: 126

Patent Vol: 36

Certificate: 980

Part Section:

Survey/Blk/Tsp:

Acres: 320

Adj County:

http://wwwdb.glo.state.tx.us/central/LandGrants/LandGrants.cfm?intID=148586

THIS IS THE FRANCISCO A. RUIZ GRANT, which the Paso de las Garzas

area, the Medina Somerset Road Crossing,

is carved from:

County: Bexar

Abstract Number:

614

District/Class: Bexar 1st

File Number: 000267

Original Grantee: Ruiz, Francisco A

Patentee: Twohig, John

Title Date:

Patent Date: 31 Dec 1845

Patent No: 340

Patent Vol: 3

Certificate: 42

Part Section:

Survey/Blk/Tsp:

Acres: 795.25

http://wwwdb.glo.state.tx.us/central/LandGrants/LandGrants.cfm?intID=148589

THIS IS THE FRANCISCO ROLEN GRANT, whose north boundary is

the Medina and may extend south to the Somerset area.

County: Bexar

Abstract Number:

617

District/Class: Bexar 1st

File Number: 000021

Original Grantee: Rolen, Francisco

Patentee: Smith, E Jones and Smith, J W

Title Date:

Patent Date: 13 Aug 1844

Patent No: 185

Patent Vol: 2

Certificate: 13

Part Section:

Survey/Blk/Tsp:

Acres: 4605.50

http://wwwdb.glo.state.tx.us/central/Land

Below: Walsh Ranch Gate Sign. Melvin Schupp, Photographer

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Focus On Dispensationalism's Role In Bible Prophecy By An Internet Remnant Group - 11:07 AM, 5/4/2008

Focus On Dispensationalism's Role In Prophecy By An Internet Remnant Group

Bernard Pyron

From May of 2003 until February of 2008 I was in a Christian Yahoo

Group whose moderator and founder of a broadcast ministry earlier on

short wave only and now also on Internet radio had come out of a large

church devoted to dispensationalism. For a number of years he has

promoted

what is essentially historical premillennialism. "Historical

premillennialism" may not be familiar to some as a term. What it

signifies is a way of interpreting end time Bible prophecy that, like

dispensationalism, accepts the one thousand year reign of Christ on

earth. But unlike dispensationalism, historical premillenialism

teaches that Christ will return at the end of the Tribulation, that

there is no rapture of the Church before the Tribulation begins, and

it teaches that Christians are Israel born again. So, different from

dispensationalism, historical premillennialism does not start from the

idea that unsaved Jews are God's chosen people.

Most others in the group followed this man who rejected the

dispensationalism of his large church

until he shut the group down as an interactive forum. The group was

made up mainly of Church drop-outs.

We were critical of the Jewish Supremacy starting point of

dispensationalism. But some in the group have done more than just

accept Revelation 20: 3, that there is to be a thousand year reign of

Christ on earth. Unlike the amillennialists, some have tried to

understand something of what is to happen during the Tribulation, that

is, what events are to happen leading up to the actual return of

Christ at the Seventh Trumpet.. I suspect that the five wise virgins

of the parable in Matthew 25: 1-13 have some knowledge of what is to

occur during the Tribulation. Christ in John 16: 13 says that the Holy

Spirit "...will shew you things to come."

"Amillennialists" is another term some may not be familiar with.

It means no millennium. Amillennialists say there is to be no thousand

year reign of Christ on earth following

the Tribulation. More importantly, amillennialism is a method of

interpreting end time Bible prophecy

which stresses big, sweeping allegorical interpretations.

The Yahoo Group I was in focused on dispensationalism and had little

knowledge of Calvinism. As a result the people in the group who

developed an understanding of end time events involving God's judgment

on the Church for false doctrines considered only dispensationalism,

how that theology teaches that Jews must be honored as God's chosen

people, and how dispensationalism can go to extremes along the lines

of John Hagee's organization Christians United For Israel (CUFI). The

leaders proposed an "Esau Effect," so that dispensationalist

Christians, like Esau, would give up their birthright, in saying

Christians are not Israel. In addition, the group leaders taught that

when people within dispensationalism start to come out of that false

theology, they will begin to proclaim the truth that Christians are

Israel.

The leaders of this Christian Remnant group on the Internet said that

the Church has taught a false doctrine about who is Israel, saying the

Jews are Israel and the Christian Church is something different from

Israel. Emphasizing the role of the 144,000 of Revelation 7: 1-8 and

Revelation 14: 1-5 in bringing that one third of the Church out to the

truth as foretold in Zechariah 13: 8-9, this Internet Remnant taught

that understanding the identity of the Remnant of Israel is necessary

to understanding that the 144,000 are also the Remnant of Israel. I

agree with all this as far as the dispensationalists in the Church are

concerned.

Paul said in I Corinthians 14: 29 says "Let the prophets speak two or

three, and let the other judge." He is talking about prophets

speaking in his small house churches where people participated in the

services much more than people do now in the Churches. But

nevertheless what Paul says can be applied to prophets who are outside

the organized Church and who interpret end time Bible prophecy. Let

them speak their interpetations of end time Bible prophecy. But also,

Paul says, let others judge what the prophets say.

I think the analysis of the role of the theology called

dispensationalism by this Internet Remnant is basically accurate. The

problem is that the Church does not have one theology -

dispensationalism - but has at least two main theologies which are

dispensationalism and the many forms of Calvinism. The Church assumes

authority for Christians. Then the Church gives a part of its

authority to the theologies, so that theologies become authority for

Church members. I don't know what percentage of Christians in America

or in the world are dispensationalist, but its the larger part of the

Church. Calvinists make up a great deal of that somewhat smaller part

of the Church.

And - as we will soon see, many Calvinists have for decades and even

centuries said that Christians are Israel and they do not follow

replacement theology, that the Church replaced Israel. You might say,

but most Calvinists don't really believe they are Israel, do they?

Knowing that many Calvinists are very rigid in what they believe and

follow, I would have to say that many Calvinists do believe Christians are Israel.

Fewer Calvinists now than say

in the 17th and 18th centuries may understand what being Israel means.

But many Calvinists do believe Christians are Israel while themselves

perhaps being in some apostasy because they reject Biblical knowledge.

For these Calvinists who are rejecting Biblical knowledge due to their

Calvinism or end time interpretative system of amillennialism,

proclaiming that Christians are Israel may not be an indication that

they are coming out of apostasy as it would for dispensationalists

coming out of false doctrines.

Calvinists Say Christians Are Israel

I looked in the Westminister Confession of Faith (1643) for an

explicit statement that the New Testament Christian is Israel, or is

spiritual Israel or Isreal reborn. I didn't find such an explicit

statement there. This does not mean that the doctrine saying

Christians are Israel is not implicit in the Confession.

But here is an explicit set of statements by a Reformed

professor of theology:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/jewsfirst.html

To The Jew First, A Reformed Perspective

by Dr. Richard L. Pratt, Jr.

Professor, Reformed Theological Seminary

"As the Westminster Assembly put it, the one covenant of grace "was

differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of

the gospel," 9 but "there are not … two covenants of grace, differing

in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations." 10

Westminister Confession of Faith, [9] 7.5

[10] 7.6

"In the first place, separation theology views Israel and the New

Testament church as two relatively separate peoples of God. This

viewpoint has become popular in recent decades through Scofieldian

Dispensationalism, and continues to varying degrees in many

contemporary expressions of Dispensationalism. In general, separation

theology radically distinguishes the divine program for ethnic Israel

from that of the New Testament church."

"In the second place, replacement theology holds that ethnic Israel

has ceased to be special in the eyes of God. This outlook has

dominated a number of denominations throughout the centuries. In this

view, God has abrogated the special covenant status of ethnic Israel

and replaced Israel with the Christian church. At times, this

replacement is thought to be so categorical that Jews no longer have

any special role whatsoever in the plan of God. "

"...many Christians outside the Reformed tradition characterize the

Calvinistic position as replacement theology. I suspect that this

misperception stems largely from the strong rhetoric many Reformed

theologians employ against the separation theology of

Dispensationalism. It is important, however, to understand that the

Reformed position differs from both separation and replacement

theologies....

"It is more accurate to describe the Reformed view on the people of

God as "unity theology." In this outlook, the New Testament church is

one with Israel of the Old Testament. The promises to Israel are not

abrogated, but extended and fulfilled through the salvation of both

Jews and Gentiles in the New Testament community."

"Calvin's interpretation of Paul's statement in Romans 11: 26 that

"all Israel will be saved" points to this strong sense of unity. In

Calvin's view, "all Israel" refers neither to believing Jews alone,

nor to believers within the New Testament church alone. Instead, "all

Israel" denotes the combined number of believing Jews and Gentiles

from both the Old and New Testaments periods....

"In line with Calvin's view, it is common for Reformed theologians to

speak of Israel as the church and the church as Israel."15

15 Clowney, Edmund P. The Church. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press,

1995, pp. 42-44. Hodge, Charles. Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids:

Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1993, vol. 3, pp. 548-552

Then, I found this commentary on some forum which deals with the issue

of replacement theology versus the idea that Chistians are a

continuation of old Testament Israel"

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080316233318AA2uqKX

Comment: "What are the theological differences between Christian

Reformed Church and Reformed Church of America?They seem to be very

close... both espouse anti-Semitic replacement theologies, both are

hyper-Calvinistic..Both denominations believe that the Church has

replaced Israel (replacement theology) as the Elect."

Response: by pastorvo... Member since:

March 20, 2008

"First of all your assumptions about the Christian Reformed Church

(CRC) and the Reformed Church of America (RCA) are not correct: a)

Christianity, especially Reformed Protestant Christianity, would not

consider itself to be anti-Semitic. The theology of Reformed

Protestant Christianity sees the New Testament Church to be an

extension of the Old Testament "church." See Ephesians 2:11-22;

Galatians 3:15-29. b) Neither the CRC nor the RCA are even remotely

hyper-Calvinistic. Both of them have historically held what is called

the free offer of the gospel."

Below a member of the Missouri Synod Luthern Church says they believe

that Christians are Israel:

http://www.opednews.com/seese050504_present_Christian_delusion_dispensationalism.htm

"The theology of the Reformation as held by the LCMS (Lutheran Church

Missouri Synod, of which I became a member some years back) is

basically the same doctrine as held by the founders of our nation, who

were largely Calvinists. Luther and Calvin were contemporaries and

had their differences, so the Lutheran church has some doctrinal

differences with the Calvinist theology. But But both reject the

dispensationalist view as a latter day delusion brought about first by

the popularity of a "rapture" that would allow Christians to escape

all the world's evils, and then developing into a complete reliance of

the Church's mission on the existence of a national Israel. This

persuasion is so strong among fundamental Baptists and Pentecostals,

Nazarenes and unaffiliated Bible and charismatic churches as to be the

primary Christian doctrine in America today."

View On God's Judgment of the Church By the Internet Remnant

One of the series of events leading

up to the return of Christ we were interested in is Christ's judgment

on the Church. We were not talking about a general amillennialist

judgment of both the Church and the World when Christ appears, but a

judgmental division of the Church into three parts as seen in

Zechariah 13: 8-9 and in Ezekiel 5: 1-5, 12 before Christ appears.

We could see how possibly dispensationalism can go very bad and become

a major part of the apostate church seen in Matthew 24; 11, II Timothy

4: 3-4, and I Timothy 4: 1-2. Dispensationalists reject Biblical

knowledge and substitute their theology for that knowledge. They

resist the truth (II Timothy 3: 8) and get into trouble with II

Thessalonians 2: 10-12 in not having a love for the truth.

The rise of John Hagee and his Christians United For Israel (CUFI)

suggested how dispensationalism can go bad and how the leaders of an

organization like that could begin to persecute Christians who do not

agree with them.

How then would Calvinists go into the apostasy of the church described

in Matthew 24: 11. II Timothy 4: 3-4 and I Timothy 4: 1-2?

I have seen examples of how Calvinist amillennialists reject Biblical

knowledge about end time events and follow their interpretative system

of the use of broad allegories for specific images or events of end

time prophecy. Right now I can only think of one other instance of end

time prophecy which the amillennialists allegorize away, which is the

144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14. They say the 144,000 are saints from

all ages. But they tend to avoid detailed study of the many specific

metaphors and descriptions of end time prophecy.

If Calvinists decide from their TULIP theology that a Calvinist cannot

go into apostasy because that would mean he would lose his salvation,

then this too could be a rejection of knowledge. Does II Thessalonians

2: 10-12 have a clause that says this verse does not apply to TULIP Calvinists?

A TULIP Calvinist believes in five point Calvinism, as follows:

1. Total depravity or inability to seek God. Total depravity teaches

that everyone including

the elect and non-elect are incapable of choosing God

because man is fallen and sinful.

2. Unconditional election. Calvinists believe that

God predestined salvation unconditionally for some people through

God's choice and not ours. You do not earn your salvation

through works, and you can not force God to choose you

through your works. You have to be chosen unconditionally.

3. Limited atonement or particular redemption. Calvinists say that

Christ died only to save the elect, those predestinated by him for

salvation. Arminians believe that God died for everyone. Originally,

Arminians were followers of the Dutch theologian Jacob Arminius

(1560-1609) who opposed the Calvinist doctrine of predestination. John

Wesley (1703-1791), founder of the Methodist movement,

made Arminianism a part of Methodist theology. Some form of

Arminianism tends to go along with dispensationalism in most

contemporary Churches.

4. Irresistible grace. Five Point Arminianism tends to deny God's

omnipotence. Their beliefs imply that men have the power to reject

God's grace. Calvinists believe that God's grace is totally

irresistible. Calvinists believe that once anyone

receives God's grace, he will totally accept and try to obey God.

5. Perseverance and Inability to Lose Salvation. Five Point Arminians

believe that you can lose

your salvation even though you were once saved. On the other hand, Calvinists

believe that if you are a Christian, you will always

remain a Christian and will not lose your salvation.

I am going to include here an article of mine about judgment

on the world or judgment on the church.

"Will Christ Judge the World Or The Church?"

Acts 17: 31 is part of Paul's talk to the philosophers at Athens.

There he says "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will

judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;

whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised

him from the dead."

Psalm 96: 13 says "Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to

judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the

people with his truth."

These two verses can be used to argue that Christ is to judge the

world instead of the Church. Those defending the Church can say that

the world is made up of people who are not believers, and "the world"

does not include God's people.

The defenders of the Church might also use Revelation 19: 11 and 15.

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat

upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth

judge and make war...And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that

with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod

of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of

Almighty God." The Church defenders could claim that Christ in

smitting the nations is judging the world, not the Church. They don't

want the Church to be judged.

But there are Scripures sayng Christ will judge his people. Acts 17:

31 and Psalm 96: 13 have to be interpreted with these Scriptures in

mind.

Amos 7: 8 says "And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And

I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a

plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by

them any more" Here God is judging "my people Israel." The

dispensationalists will say "my people Israel" are the Jews, though

some of the Calvinists will agree that maybe its also the Christian

Church.

Deuteronomy 32: 35-36: "To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence;

their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is

at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. For the

LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when

he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or

left."

"There is none shut up" means there are no Christians left in jail

who were marked for persecution. "None left" means there are none of

this group left alive at some point during the Tribulation.

If Deuteronomy 32: 35-36 is interpreted to deal with God's judgment on

the Church, then it helps to explain several clear New Testament texts

which say Christians will be persecuted in the Tribulation and

mentioning the Churches perhaps being involved.

Matthew 24: 9-11 confirms judgment will happen to the "Church:" "Then

shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye

shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many

be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one

another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

Luke 21: 16 says: "And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and

brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they

cause to be put to death." "Some" has been added to the King James

English in Luke 21: 16, because the Greek word "tis", or "men",

meaning some is not in the Greek Textus Receptus, from which the KJV

is translated.

"And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates,

and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or

what ye shall say:" Luke 12: 11

The reference to synagogues is not limited to Jewish synagogues.

Synagogues is Strong's number 4864, meaning "an assemblage of persons,

a Jewish synagogue, by analogy, a Christian church, assembly,

congregation, synagogue." Sunagoge in the Greek, or synagogue,

can mean a Christian church. Magistrates probably refers to judges, to

whom Christians are brought on some kind of charge, such as blasphemy

under the Noahide laws or hate speech laws.

John 16: 2 teaches that "They shall put you out of the

synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth

you will think that he doeth God service,"

Aposunagogous here is from Strong's number 656, meaning,

"excommunicated, put out of the synagogue"

The so called protestant churches will kick Christians out of

their churches because these Christians no

longer conform to the theologies of the churches. The last

part of John 16:2 is significant, "...yea,

the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that

he doeth God service."

Then what is the teaching of Luke 17: 34-37 and Matthew 24: 28 all

about, that of two people one shall be taken and the other left? The

apostles asked Christ where they were to be taken to and he answered,

more clearly in Matthew 24: 28, "For wheresoever the carcase is, there

will be eagles be gathered together." Are the "eagles" really

vultures? The people taken are not taken in the dispensationalist

rapture before the Tribulation, but they are taken as part of the

persecution of Christians in the Tribulation which is part of the

judgment upon the apostate Church.

In Revelation 9: 19, on the Sixth Trumpet Judgment, there is a

metaphoric identification of one group who persecutes Christians at

this time. The verse says "For their power is in their mouth, and in

their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents." Christ says in

Matthew 12: 34 "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak

good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth

speaketh." Then he says in Matthew 23: 33, after clearly identifying

the group he is speaking to as the Pharisees and the scribes, "Ye

serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of

hell?"

The group who persecutes a group of Christians in Revelation 9: 19 is

not the Pharisees of Christ's day brought to the time of the

Tribulation. They are called serpents because they are Pharisee types.

They are Pharisee types within the Church who have gone extreme.

There is some information on this persecution of a group of Christians

back in Daniel 11: 33, "And they that understand among the people

shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame,

by captivity, and by spoil, many days." They that fall are those

instructed, not the ones doing the instruction.

The dispensationalists will probably say that Deuteronomy 32: 35-36 as

an Testament Scripture does not apply to the Christian Church.

Calvinists might not make that objection, but might make some other

objection.

Hebrews 10: 30: "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth

unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall

judge his people."

Then I Peter 4: 17 says "For the time is come that judgment must

begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the

end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

What do you think? Bernard In Cool Damp Ol Misery (Missouri)"

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Church's Argument: Christ Will Judge the World, Not the Church - 9:21 AM, 4/20/2008

Bernard Pyron

Followers of the various forms of Calvinism reject some

Biblical knowledge, or doctrine, just as do the classical dispensationalists. Though some Calvinists are

dispensationalists, many of them are not. As a result some

Calvinists who may not necessarily be 144,000 or emerging Multitude would not reject the knowledge that Christians

in the truth are spiritual Israel as much as do the

dispensationalists. The Calvinists tend not to have their eyes

on unsaved Jews as God's chosen people. But the Calvinists

do reject knowledge.

The many forms of Calvinism represent a different tradition of men than the more recent dispensationalism, and the two theologies have somewhat different problems with Scripture.

The Yahoo Group of Calvinists I am on are mostly amillennialists

which means they reject the millennium, and they use broad sweeping allegories to interpret some other events of end time Bible

prophecy. They tend not to deal with events of the Tribulation other than the actual appearing of Christ and his judgment at that time. However, sometimes they will make use of a verse in Matthew 24, Luke 21 or the Book of Revelation to make some point. For them the 144,000 are an allegory of all the saved people through the entire Church Age. It would take more than pointing out the problem of sealing the now mostly dead saints of all ages to protect them from what is coming in the Tribulation to get the Church Defenders to change on this issue.

Rigidity of doctrine is characteristic of the Calvinists as of the dispensationaliss.

Yesterday a member on this Calvinist group posted a message

stressing Acts 17: 31, and Psalm 96: 13.

Acts 17: 31 is part of Paul's talk to the philosophers at Athens. There he says "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

Psalm 96: 13 says "Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth."

These two verses can be used to argue that Christ is to judge the world instead of the Church. Those defending the Church can say that the world is made up of people who are not believers, and "the world" does not include God's people.

The defenders of the Church might also use Revelation 19: 11 and 15. "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war...And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." The Church defenders could claim that Christ in smitting the nations is judging the world, not the Church. They don't want the Church to be judged.

Amos 7: 8 says "And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more" Here God is judging "my people Israel." The dispensationalists will say "my people Israel" are the Jews, though some of the Calvinists will agree that maybe its also the Christian Church.

The dispensationalist or Calvinist defenders of the Church might try to ignore Deuteronomy 32: 35-36, Hebrews 10: 30 and I Peter 4: 17 if you bring them up and point out that Acts 17: 31 and Psalm 96: 13 have to be interpreted with these Scriptures in mind.

Deuteronomy 32: 35-36: "To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left."

The dispensationalists will probably say that this Old Testament Scripture does not apply to the Christian Church. Calvinists might not make that objection, but might make some other objection, such as saying that we should not string together Scriptures from various books of the Bible, a sort of lame argument, it seems to me.

Hebrews 10: 30: "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people."

Then I Peter 4: 17 says "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

What do you think? Bernard In Cool Damp Ol Misery (Missouri)

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Interpretations of II Peter 3: 10-13 - 9:48 AM, 4/18/2008

Interpretations of II Peter 3: 10-13

Bernard Pyron

II Peter 3: 10-13 says "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief

in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great

noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also

and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that

all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye

to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein

the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall

melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look

for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

Harold Camping in 1993-94 taught that when Christ appears it is

the end

of the world, interpreting II Peter 10-13 as saying the

world will be totally destroyed. Harold Camping comes out of the American Dutch Reformed Church and he has been a follower of amillennialism. For years Camping has broadcast on short wave and regular AM and FM radio worldwide over Family Radio. In 1992-94 he taught that the world was to end in September of 1994. I am not sure where Camping got the interpretation of II Peter 3: 10-13 that the world is to be entirely destroyed when Christ appears. He might have gotten it from his Calvinist background.

But I can see how those who interpret II Peter 3: 10-13 as saying the

world will be totally destroyed at the appearing of the Lord would not

see how it is possible that there could be a thousand year reign of

Christ on earth after the Tribulation - unless God re-creates the

earth, as II Peter 3: 13 says.

Accepting Revelation 20: 1-6, that there is to be a thousand year

reign of Christ on earth, avoids the problem of the two resurrections,

the first in Revelation 20: 4, and the second after the thousand years

which is in Revelation 20: 5 and 20: 11-15. The first resurrection is

for the saved and the second for the unsaved.

If amillennialists follow Augustine and say that the thousand year

reign of Christ on earth is a broad allegory of the entire Church Age,

then the first or second resurrection in Revelation 20 has also to be

allegorized away - or amillennialists can change the Book of

Revelation and say

there is to be only one resurrection at the end of the world.

One of the big problems of amillenialism as a theology which claims to

interpret end time events is that it does much the same thing with

other end time events as it does with the millennial reign of a

thousand years. For example, the 144,000 of Revelation 7: 1-8 and

14:1-5 in amillennialism are allegorized away as representing all

saved Christians in the entire Church Age. So, in amillennialism,

most of them are not alive now or at the time they are sealed, and

how could they perform the role Christ

has for them (see Daniel 11: 33, for example). And why are the mostly dead 144,000 sealed to protect them from what is coming on the earth during the Tribulation?

What would strict amillennialism do with Luke 21: 16, that Christians

in the end time will be put to death? Or Luke 21: 36, saying that

Christians should pray that they are worthy to escape all the things

that come to pass during the Tribulation?. I have no idea how

amillennialists would interpret Revelation 9 on the Fifth and Sixth

Trumpet Judgments. They may ignore Revelation Chapter 9.

I can’t see that amillennialism has done a great deal to encourage

persistent study of end time Bible prophecy. As a result, amillennialists and their followers

generally do not know what to expect to happen during the Tribulation.

Perhaps they are only interested in one event, the appearing of

Christ.. But Christ said in John 16: 13 that the Holy Spirit will

"…shew you things to come," meaning he will open end time Scriptures for us, or some of us. Christ did not mean that the Holy Spirit will only show us the appearing of the Lord, but will show us "things," plural events.Within the Church, dispensationalist premillennialism dominates understanding of end time events. Dispensationalism makes an extremesplit between Old Testament Israel and the Christian Church, has its eye on honoring the unsaved Jews, and promises that Christians will be raptured off the earth before the Great Tribulation begins.

Followers of dispensationalism tend to reject any Bible teaching that the Tribulation is about God’s judgment upon the Christian Church. And in the Church there is little understanding of alternative end time prophecy interpretative systems other than dispensationalism, Catholic and Calvinist amillennialism, preterism and dominionism.

I know that there have been writers who follow the historical premillennialism of the Early Church Fathers, but I have not found the writings of contemporary historical premillennialists on the Internet to read. One small Christian Remnant on the Internet happens to follow historical premillennialism, that is, they believe in a thousand year reign of Christ on earth following the Tribulation. But unlike the dispensationalists, the Remnant Christians I am talking about do not separate faithful Old Testament Israel from the Church as the dispensationlists do. The remnant Christians say that Christians in the truth are Israel. They do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and delve into end time prophecy in trying to fully understand what events are to take place before Christ comes back at the Seventh Trumpet which marks the end of the Tribulation. Dispensationalists who follow the pre-tribulation rapture theory say that Christ can appear invisible any time to get Christians and no understanding of end time events is necessary to know when he may appear.

Lets see what John Gill, the 18th century Reformed Baptist, said about II Peter 3: 10:

http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?

book=2pe&chapter=003&verse=010

"and the elements shall melt with fervent heat:

not what are commonly called the four elements, earth, air, fire, and

water, the first principles of all things: the ancient philosophers

distinguished between principles and elements; principles, they say

F8, are neither generated, nor corrupted; (ta te stoiceia kata thn

ekpurwsin) (fyeiresyai) , "but the elements will be corrupted, or

destroyed by the conflagration"; which exactly agrees with what the

apostle here says: by the elements seem to be meant the host of

heaven, being distinguished from the heavens, as the works of the

earth are distinguished from the earth in the next clause; and design

the firmament, or expanse, with the sun, moon, and stars in it, which

will be purged and purified by this liquefaction by fire; the earth also

will be purged and purified from everything that is noxious, hurtful,

unnecessary, and disagreeable; though the matter and substance of it

will continue:"

TSABA SHAMAYIM, host of heaven Tsaba is Strong’s number 6635 Hebrew, a mass of persons (or figuratively things), especially regarding

organized for war (an army), by implication a campaign, lit. or fig.

(spec. hardship, worship): - appointed time, army, battle, company,

host, service, soldiers, waiting uppon, war.

Heaven is Hebrew number 8064, shamayim, shaw-mah’-yim, dual of an

unused singular Heb. shameh, shaw-meh’, from an unused root meaning to

be lofty, the sky (as aloft, the dual perhaps alluding to the visible

arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher either where

the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven(-s).

Isaiah 34:4 "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the

heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall

fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig

from the fig tree (Rev. 6:13)."

Psalm 75: 3 "The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it."

John Gill may have gotten the idea that II Peter 3: 10 concerns the

dissolving of the host of heaven from Isaiah 34: 4. The ancient

Hebrews fell away from worship of God to the worship of the host of

heaven, which is the sun and the moon and any of the host of heaven.

Isaiah 34: 4 could be interpreted literally, saying that the host of

heaven as the sun, moon and stars will be dissolved. But Deuteronomy

4: 19 and 17:3 say that the sun, moon and stars - the host of heaven -

are worshipped instead of the Lord. In

I Kings 22: 19 the host of heaven is seen standing by the Lord, and

some are on his right hand and some on his left hand. Remember in

Matthew 25: 31-41 the sheep are set on the Lord’s right hand and the

goats on his left hand (verse 33). The sheep on the Lord’s right hand

inherit the kingdom but the goats on his left hand are sent into

everlasting fire. In Amos 7: 8 the Lord say "I will set a plumbline

in the midst of my people Israel: I will not pass by them any more."

The plumbline of Amos 7 suggests that the sheep and the goats are both

part of "my people Israel."

The host of heaven as the sun, moon and stars becomes a kind of

metaphor, in I Kings 22: 19, where the Lord is seen judging

the host of heaven by putting some on his right hand and some on his

left hand. The various bodies of the host of heaven which are physically the sun, moon and stars appear to represent

groups of people, that is, groups within "my people Israel."

And don’t forget that

"my people Israel" worshipped the host of heaven. Pagan gods were associated with

the various physical bodies of the heavens.

In Acts 7; 43 Stephen tells the Pharisees "Yea, ye took up the

tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon."

He is quoting Amos 5: 25-27, "Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and

offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? But ye

have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the

star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. Therefore will I cause

you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name

is The God of hosts."

The "star of your god" may be the six pointed star of Solomon which in

later times became the national symbol of the nation of Israel. If its

a five pointed star, its still part of the worship of the host of

heaven.

Deuteronomy 4:19 "And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and

when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the

host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them,

which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole

heaven."

Deuteronomy 17:3 "And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped

them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven ("the

heavenly bodies"), which I have not commanded;"

1 Kings 22:19 "And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD:

I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven

standing by him on his right hand and on his left."

2 Kings 17:16 "And they left all the commandments of the LORD their

God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove,

and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal."

2 Kings 21:5 "And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the

two courts of the house of the LORD."

If II Peter 3: 10-13 does not say that the earth will be totally

destroyed at the appearance of Christ, but that the host of heaven

representing worship of false doctrines will be destroyed, and that

all of this involves "my people Israel" which is the Christian Church,

the Church will not accept this interpretation. Bernard

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More On the Parable of the Ten Virgins of Matthew 25: 1-13 - 9:40 AM, 4/15/2008

Bernard Pyron

Matthew 25: 1-13 says: "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

This is a parable, a metaphor in the form of a story. It is a warning to whoever the five unwise virgins represent. And as a parable, this story has a time setting. Look at Matthew 24: 29-30: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Then read I Corinthians 15: 51- 52: "Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, In a moment, in the twinking of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Christ is to appear in glory for all the world to see at the end of the Tribulation. He will appear at the Seventh Trumpet. But right before he appears, the Tribulation will still be going on. So the time setting of the parable of the ten virgins is during the Tribulation, toward its end.

The oil which the ten virgins had for their lamps represents the annointing of the Holy Spirit. The oil also represents knowledge given by the Holy Spirit. Christ says in John 16: 13 of the Holy Spirit, who he has been calling the Comforter, that "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself: but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

The oil in the lamps of the ten virgins represents the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and the knowledge which the Holy Spirit gives to the virgins. But the five unwise virgins do not have the general knowledge the five wise ones have, nor do the unwise virgins have the more specific knowledge of end time events known by the wise virgins. John 16: 13 says "...he shall shew you things to come." The Holy Spirit will open up the Scriptures on end time events to five of the virgins in this parable set toward the end of the Tribulation.

Showing Christians things to come does not mean that we are shown the exact day on the calendar when Christ will appear. Date setting by a celebrity like Hal Lindsey and someone who is a celebrity for his listeners, like Harold Camping, is going off in a false direction. For the most part, date setters don't really know as much about what is going to occur in the end times as some other believers who avoid date setting. They become fixated on exactly when the world is going to end and when Christ is to appear.

There are also those who get too caught up in trying to set up the exact timing of the end time events in Bible prophecy. Some get involved mainly in laying out the sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Vials of the Book of Revelation and think by doing this they have solved the problem of the meaning of this prophetic book. Rather than focus more on the doctrines taught by end time prophecy, what is to happen, getting the metaphors right, and who the players are in end time Scriptures, they spend more time and energy on timing. It is very important to know who the players are in the events described in end time prophecy, for if you don't know who the players are to be, most likely when that prophecy comes to fulfillment, you will not discern that it has been fulfilled, and you will not know roughly where we are in prophecy unfolding at a given time.

The parable of the ten virgins of Matthew 25: 1-13 teaches that the five wise virgins had enough oil in their possession to light their lamps in the darkness of the Tribulation in part because they had studied end time Bible prophecy and knew approximately what to expect. The knew that Christ is to appear at the last trump (I Corinthians 15: 52), which is the Seventh Trumpet, and knew this comes sometime after the Fifth and Sixth Trumpets. They probably knew enough to discern from events when the Fifth and Sixth Trumpets occur.

The problem with theologies is that they can block this kind of understanding which the Five Wise Virgins had. Dispensationalism with its eye on honoring the unbelieving Jews and its inability to see that the Tribulation is to be judgment upon the Church can easily prevent Christians from being able to discern when the Fifth and Sixth Trumpet Judgments are happening. Its insistence on a consistent literal interpretation of end time Scripture can block any understanding of who the players are in the Fifth and Sixth Trumpet Judgments of Revelation 9.

Amillennialism is another theology which has been in use much longer than dispensationalism. But it is not a system of interpretation of end time Scripture which encourages detailed study of end time prophecy and which leads to the understanding the five wise virgins have. Harold Camping came out of the American Dutch Reformed Church, which is Calvinist. Amillennialism is the interpretation system of end time prophecy Harold Camping has tended to follow. But amillennialism is not the only end time system of interpretation used by Calvinists. Some Calvinists have been preterists, believing that all end time prophecy was fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., some have gone into forms of dominionism, thinking that the Church must first take over the world, and then Christ can appear, and a very few have been historical premillennialists, following the interpretation system of the early Church Fathers.

Calvinist or Catholic Amillennialism is not limited to Revelation 20: 1-7 on the thousand year millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Tribulation. Amillennialists interpret and allegorize away the millennial reign in a broad sweeping way to say that this is the entire Church Age. They have, over the centuries, tended to allegorize away many specific end time Bible prophecies in a similar way. The result has been that usually amillennialists do not deal in much detail with end time prophecy and often avoid it.

Its not too surprising that after neglecting a detailed study of end time prophecy, Harold Camping and his followers would get it very wrong when in the last few years Camping has made use of some of its verses, especially this business about some group of players in the Fifth Trumpet Judgment of Revelation 9: 5 being tormented five months, and fitting this five months into Harold Camping's date setting, time spans and numerology.

Camping says on

http://www.familyra dio.com/graphica l/literature/ waat/waat_ temp.html

"We have learned that there is a five-

month period of time that immediately follows the 8,400-day great

tribulation period. What is happening during that time? This final

five months that begins on May 21, 2011, is intensely focused on

God's salvation plan as well as on His judgment plan. We will

discover that on the first day of that five months, which is May 21,

2011, all of the true believers are to be raptured to be forever with

Christ. We will also discover it is the day when the judgment of hell

begins for all of the unsaved.

In Revelation 9, the Bible speaks of a time when hell will begin on

this earth. It encompasses a time of five months (verses 5 and 10).

The chapter begins with the words that "the bottomless pit" (a

synonym for hell), is opened and the smoke as of a great furnace came

forth. At that time, those who had been convinced they were saved

because they had been teachers and preachers of the Bible, but were

not saved, and they had not been raptured, are still trying to teach

their wrong understanding of the Bible. They are typified by locusts

(verse 3), and are ruled over by Abaddon (destruction) and Apollyon

(destroyer) (verse 11), and are hurting those who are living on the

earth at that time....

The true believers will have been raptured on the first day of this

final five-month period, so they will completely escape the horrors

of that final period of time. Whereas this five-month period will be

an enormous horror story for those who have not been raptured, it

will be a time of great joy and wonder for those who are raptured.

This period of five months encompasses exactly 153 days, May 21 to

October 21. The number 153 spiritually breaks down to 3 x 3 x 17,

just as it does when we examined the 153 fish. Spiritually,

therefore, it identifies with those for whom it was God's purpose (3)

to take them to heaven (17). The number 3 doubled signifies that God will surely bring it to pass."

While the five wise virgins know enough to discern when the Fifth and Sixth Trumpet Judgments happen and know approximately who the players are - and wouldn't fall for Camping's story about the five months in Revelation 9: 5 - they do not know the exact date on the calendar when Christ is to appear. Bernard

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One Small Step Closer To the Martyrdom of the Multitude - 7:35 PM, 4/10/2008

Bernard Pyron

On the blog http://cufi.convio.net/site/PageServer?pagename=about_brog_blog#april_7_2

which is pro-John Hagee and pro-Christians United For Israel (CUFI)
the writer explains that John Hagee does not use the term in the Book
of Revelation, the Great Whore, to describe the Catholic Church. The
writer of this blog says "It is actually Revelation that supplies us
with the term "Great Whore." Pastor Hagee merely explains that this
will be an "apostate church" made up of all those who abandon the
teachings of Christ and embrace false doctrines such as
anti-Semitism."

Remember that recently John Hagee in an interview on Jews On First at
http://www.jewsonfirst.org/08a/hagee_wise.html
says that Christians who say that we are spiritual Israel are guilty
of an anti-semitic theology. This was reported in an article by
Harmony Grant called John Hagee - False Prophet at
http://www.rense.com/general81/haggee.htm

To Hagee and his many dispensationalist followers, Christians who say
we are Israel are part of the "apostate church," the Great Whore of
Revelation 17: 1. Now Congress has passed "The Global Anti-Semitism
Awareness/Review Act" to create a State Department office to monitor
international anti-Semitism. The passing of this act is reported on
World Net Daily at
http://www.worldnet daily.com/ news/article. asp?ARTICLE_ ID=40868

The State Department has a 94 page document defining anti-semitism at
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/102301.pdf
This report says that "The European Monitoring Center on Racism and
Xenophobia (EUMC)"in
close collaboration with the Organization
for Security and Cooperation in Europe's Office of Democratic
Institutions and Human Rights, international experts on anti-
Semitism, and civil society organizations" began discussing a common
approach to data collection on anti-Semitism. This effort led to the drafting
of a Working Definition of Anti-Semitism. The EUMC's working
definition provides a useful framework for identifying and
understanding the problem and is adopted for the purposes of this
report: "Anti-Semitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be
expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical
and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward
Jewish or non-Jewish individuals
and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and
religious facilities."
Because the working definition is broad, the EUMC provides
explanatory text that discusses the kinds of acts that could be
considered anti-Semitic."

"Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical
allegations about Jews as such
• or the power of Jews as a collective"such as, especially but not
exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews
controlling the media, economy, government or other societal
institutions."

Criticism of the dispensationalist promotion of a Jewish kingdom to
appear perhaps in the end times could be anti-semitism. Criticism of
Jewish Zionism would be anti-semitism.

The official definition of anti-semitism may not in an explicit way go
so far as to include a Christian saying that Christians, not Jews, are
God's chosen people and that Christians are spiritual Israel. But
Christians who say they are Israel and the chosen people might be
defined as being anti-semitic under a more general and vague
definition of anti-semitism. And Christians who say they are Israel
and the chosen people of God could also be persecuted under terrorist
laws by defining them as terrorists, or under the Noahide laws, by
saying they are guilty of blasphemy for following Jesus Christ.

But the passing of The Global Anti-Semitism Awareness/Review Act by
the U.S. Congress and the The European Monitoring Center on Racism and
Xenophobia's Working Definition of Anti-Semitism are two small steps
closer to the setting up a process by which Christians who say we are
spiritual Israel can be charged with a crime.

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Romans 11: 25-26 and the Jewish Kingdom - 5:55 PM, 4/6/2008

On www.rense.com April 2, 2008 Harmony Grant has an article

called "John Hagee - False Prophet."

The link to the article is:

http://www.rense.com/general81/haggee.htm

Harmony Grant quotes John Hagee as saying "Some pastors teach that

Romans 9-11 refers to the church," Hagee writes, "that the church has

become a "spiritual Israel" and has replaced the Jewish people. This