Focus On Dispensationalism's Role In Prophecy By An Internet Remnant Group

Bernard Pyron

From May of 2003 until February of 2008 I was in a Christian Yahoo

Group whose moderator and founder of a broadcast ministry earlier on

short wave only and now also on Internet radio had come out of a large

church devoted to dispensationalism. For a number of years he has

promoted

what is essentially historical premillennialism. "Historical

premillennialism" may not be familiar to some as a term. What it

signifies is a way of interpreting end time Bible prophecy that, like

dispensationalism, accepts the one thousand year reign of Christ on

earth. But unlike dispensationalism, historical premillenialism

teaches that Christ will return at the end of the Tribulation, that

there is no rapture of the Church before the Tribulation begins, and

it teaches that Christians are Israel born again. So, different from

dispensationalism, historical premillennialism does not start from the

idea that unsaved Jews are God's chosen people.

Most others in the group followed this man who rejected the

dispensationalism of his large church

until he shut the group down as an interactive forum. The group was

made up mainly of Church drop-outs.

We were critical of the Jewish Supremacy starting point of

dispensationalism. But some in the group have done more than just

accept Revelation 20: 3, that there is to be a thousand year reign of

Christ on earth. Unlike the amillennialists, some have tried to

understand something of what is to happen during the Tribulation, that

is, what events are to happen leading up to the actual return of

Christ at the Seventh Trumpet.. I suspect that the five wise virgins

of the parable in Matthew 25: 1-13 have some knowledge of what is to

occur during the Tribulation. Christ in John 16: 13 says that the Holy

Spirit "...will shew you things to come."

"Amillennialists" is another term some may not be familiar with.

It means no millennium. Amillennialists say there is to be no thousand

year reign of Christ on earth following

the Tribulation. More importantly, amillennialism is a method of

 interpreting end time Bible prophecy

 which stresses big, sweeping allegorical interpretations.

The Yahoo Group I was in focused on dispensationalism and had little

knowledge of Calvinism. As a result the people in the group who

developed an understanding of end time events involving God's judgment

on the Church for false doctrines considered only dispensationalism,

how that theology teaches that Jews must be honored as God's chosen

people, and how dispensationalism can go to extremes along the lines

of John Hagee's organization Christians United For Israel (CUFI). The

leaders proposed an "Esau Effect," so that dispensationalist

Christians, like Esau, would give up their birthright, in saying

Christians are not Israel. In addition, the group leaders taught that

when people within dispensationalism start to come out of that false

theology, they will begin to proclaim the truth that Christians are

Israel.

The leaders of this Christian Remnant group on the Internet said that

the Church has taught a false doctrine about who is Israel, saying the

Jews are Israel and the Christian Church is something different from

Israel. Emphasizing the role of the 144,000 of Revelation 7: 1-8 and

Revelation 14: 1-5 in bringing that one third of the Church out to the

truth as foretold in Zechariah 13: 8-9, this Internet Remnant taught

that understanding the identity of the Remnant of Israel is necessary

to understanding that the 144,000 are also the Remnant of Israel. I

agree with all this as far as the dispensationalists in the Church are

concerned.

Paul said in I Corinthians 14: 29 says "Let the prophets speak two or

three, and let the other judge." He is talking about prophets

speaking in his small house churches where people participated in the

services much more than people do now in the Churches. But

nevertheless what Paul says can be applied to prophets who are outside

the organized Church and who interpret end time Bible prophecy. Let

them speak their interpetations of end time Bible prophecy. But also,

Paul says, let others judge what the prophets say.

I think the analysis of the role of the theology called

dispensationalism by this Internet Remnant is basically accurate. The

problem is that the Church does not have one theology -

dispensationalism - but has at least two main theologies which are

dispensationalism and the many forms of Calvinism. The Church assumes

authority for Christians. Then the Church gives a part of its

authority to the theologies, so that theologies become authority for

Church members. I don't know what percentage of Christians in America

or in the world are dispensationalist, but its the larger part of the

Church. Calvinists make up a great deal of that somewhat smaller part

of the Church.

And - as we will soon see, many Calvinists have for decades and even

centuries said that Christians are Israel and they do not follow

replacement theology, that the Church replaced Israel. You might say,

but most Calvinists don't really believe they are Israel, do they?

Knowing that many Calvinists are very rigid in what they believe and

follow, I would have to say that many Calvinists do believe Christians are Israel.

Fewer Calvinists now than say

in the 17th and 18th centuries may understand what being Israel means.

But many Calvinists do believe Christians are Israel while themselves

perhaps being in some apostasy because they reject Biblical knowledge.

For these Calvinists who are rejecting Biblical knowledge due to their

Calvinism or end time interpretative system of amillennialism,

proclaiming that Christians are Israel may not be an indication that

they are coming out of apostasy as it would for dispensationalists

coming out of false doctrines.

Calvinists Say Christians Are Israel

I looked in the Westminister Confession of Faith (1643) for an

explicit statement that the New Testament Christian is Israel, or is

spiritual Israel or Isreal reborn. I didn't find such an explicit

statement there. This does not mean that the doctrine saying

Christians are Israel is not implicit in the Confession.

But here is an explicit set of statements by a Reformed

professor of theology:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/jewsfirst.html

To The Jew First, A Reformed Perspective

by Dr. Richard L. Pratt, Jr.

Professor, Reformed Theological Seminary

"As the Westminster Assembly put it, the one covenant of grace "was

differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of

the gospel," 9 but "there are not … two covenants of grace, differing

in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations." 10

Westminister Confession of Faith, [9] 7.5

[10] 7.6

"In the first place, separation theology views Israel and the New

Testament church as two relatively separate peoples of God. This

viewpoint has become popular in recent decades through Scofieldian

Dispensationalism, and continues to varying degrees in many

contemporary expressions of Dispensationalism. In general, separation

theology radically distinguishes the divine program for ethnic Israel

from that of the New Testament church."

"In the second place, replacement theology holds that ethnic Israel

has ceased to be special in the eyes of God. This outlook has

dominated a number of denominations throughout the centuries. In this

view, God has abrogated the special covenant status of ethnic Israel

and replaced Israel with the Christian church. At times, this

replacement is thought to be so categorical that Jews no longer have

any special role whatsoever in the plan of God. "

"...many Christians outside the Reformed tradition characterize the

Calvinistic position as replacement theology. I suspect that this

misperception stems largely from the strong rhetoric many Reformed

theologians employ against the separation theology of

Dispensationalism. It is important, however, to understand that the

Reformed position differs from both separation and replacement

theologies....

"It is more accurate to describe the Reformed view on the people of

God as "unity theology." In this outlook, the New Testament church is

one with Israel of the Old Testament. The promises to Israel are not

abrogated, but extended and fulfilled through the salvation of both

Jews and Gentiles in the New Testament community."

"Calvin's interpretation of Paul's statement in Romans 11: 26 that

"all Israel will be saved" points to this strong sense of unity. In

Calvin's view, "all Israel" refers neither to believing Jews alone,

nor to believers within the New Testament church alone. Instead, "all

Israel" denotes the combined number of believing Jews and Gentiles

from both the Old and New Testaments periods....

"In line with Calvin's view, it is common for Reformed theologians to

speak of Israel as the church and the church as Israel."15

15 Clowney, Edmund P. The Church. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press,

1995, pp. 42-44. Hodge, Charles. Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids:

Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1993, vol. 3, pp. 548-552

Then, I found this commentary on some forum which deals with the issue

of replacement theology versus the idea that Chistians are a

continuation of old Testament Israel"

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080316233318AA2uqKX

Comment: "What are the theological differences between Christian

Reformed Church and Reformed Church of America?They seem to be very

close... both espouse anti-Semitic replacement theologies, both are

hyper-Calvinistic..Both denominations believe that the Church has

replaced Israel (replacement theology) as the Elect."

Response: by pastorvo... Member since:

March 20, 2008

"First of all your assumptions about the Christian Reformed Church

(CRC) and the Reformed Church of America (RCA) are not correct: a)

Christianity, especially Reformed Protestant Christianity, would not

consider itself to be anti-Semitic. The theology of Reformed

Protestant Christianity sees the New Testament Church to be an

extension of the Old Testament "church." See Ephesians 2:11-22;

Galatians 3:15-29. b) Neither the CRC nor the RCA are even remotely

hyper-Calvinistic. Both of them have historically held what is called

the free offer of the gospel."

Below a member of the Missouri Synod Luthern Church says they believe

that Christians are Israel:

http://www.opednews.com/seese050504_present_Christian_delusion_dispensationalism.htm

"The theology of the Reformation as held by the LCMS (Lutheran Church

Missouri Synod, of which I became a member some years back) is

basically the same doctrine as held by the founders of our nation, who

were largely Calvinists. Luther and Calvin were contemporaries and

had their differences, so the Lutheran church has some doctrinal

differences with the Calvinist theology. But But both reject the

dispensationalist view as a latter day delusion brought about first by

the popularity of a "rapture" that would allow Christians to escape

all the world's evils, and then developing into a complete reliance of

the Church's mission on the existence of a national Israel. This

persuasion is so strong among fundamental Baptists and Pentecostals,

Nazarenes and unaffiliated Bible and charismatic churches as to be the

primary Christian doctrine in America today."

View On God's Judgment of the Church By the Internet Remnant

One of the series of events leading

up to the return of Christ we were interested in is Christ's judgment

on the Church. We were not talking about a general amillennialist

judgment of both the Church and the World when Christ appears, but a

judgmental division of the Church into three parts as seen in

Zechariah 13: 8-9 and in Ezekiel 5: 1-5, 12 before Christ appears.

We could see how possibly dispensationalism can go very bad and become

a major part of the apostate church seen in Matthew 24; 11, II Timothy

4: 3-4, and I Timothy 4: 1-2. Dispensationalists reject Biblical

knowledge and substitute their theology for that knowledge. They

resist the truth (II Timothy 3: 8) and get into trouble with II

Thessalonians 2: 10-12 in not having a love for the truth.

The rise of John Hagee and his Christians United For Israel (CUFI)

suggested how dispensationalism can go bad and how the leaders of an

organization like that could begin to persecute Christians who do not

agree with them.

How then would Calvinists go into the apostasy of the church described

in Matthew 24: 11. II Timothy 4: 3-4 and I Timothy 4: 1-2?

I have seen examples of how Calvinist amillennialists reject Biblical

knowledge about end time events and follow their interpretative system

of the use of broad allegories for specific images or events of end

time prophecy. Right now I can only think of one other instance of end

time prophecy which the amillennialists allegorize away, which is the

144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14. They say the 144,000 are saints from

all ages. But they tend to avoid detailed study of the many specific

metaphors and descriptions of end time prophecy.

If Calvinists decide from their TULIP theology that a Calvinist cannot

go into apostasy because that would mean he would lose his salvation,

then this too could be a rejection of knowledge. Does II Thessalonians

2: 10-12 have a clause that says this verse does not apply to TULIP Calvinists?

A TULIP Calvinist believes in five point Calvinism, as follows:

1. Total depravity or inability to seek God. Total depravity teaches

that everyone including

the elect and non-elect are incapable of choosing God

because man is fallen and sinful.

2. Unconditional election. Calvinists believe that

God predestined salvation unconditionally for some people through

God's choice and not ours. You do not earn your salvation

through works, and you can not force God to choose you

through your works. You have to be chosen unconditionally.

3. Limited atonement or particular redemption. Calvinists say that

Christ died only to save the elect, those predestinated by him for

salvation. Arminians believe that God died for everyone. Originally,

Arminians were followers of the Dutch theologian Jacob Arminius

(1560-1609) who opposed the Calvinist doctrine of predestination. John

Wesley (1703-1791), founder of the Methodist movement,

made Arminianism a part of Methodist theology. Some form of

Arminianism tends to go along with dispensationalism in most

contemporary Churches.

4. Irresistible grace. Five Point Arminianism tends to deny God's

omnipotence. Their beliefs imply that men have the power to reject

God's grace. Calvinists believe that God's grace is totally

irresistible. Calvinists believe that once anyone

receives God's grace, he will totally accept and try to obey God.

5. Perseverance and Inability to Lose Salvation. Five Point Arminians

believe that you can lose

your salvation even though you were once saved. On the other hand, Calvinists

believe that if you are a Christian, you will always

remain a Christian and will not lose your salvation.

I am going to include here an article of mine about judgment

on the world or judgment on the church.

"Will Christ Judge the World Or The Church?"

Acts 17: 31 is part of Paul's talk to the philosophers at Athens.

There he says "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will

judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;

whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised

him from the dead."

Psalm 96: 13 says "Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to

judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the

people with his truth."

These two verses can be used to argue that Christ is to judge the

world instead of the Church. Those defending the Church can say that

the world is made up of people who are not believers, and "the world"

does not include God's people.

The defenders of the Church might also use Revelation 19: 11 and 15.

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat

upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth

judge and make war...And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that

with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod

of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of

Almighty God." The Church defenders could claim that Christ in

smitting the nations is judging the world, not the Church. They don't

want the Church to be judged.

But there are Scripures sayng Christ will judge his people. Acts 17:

31 and Psalm 96: 13 have to be interpreted with these Scriptures in

mind.

Amos 7: 8 says "And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And

I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a

plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by

them any more" Here God is judging "my people Israel." The

dispensationalists will say "my people Israel" are the Jews, though

some of the Calvinists will agree that maybe its also the Christian

Church.

Deuteronomy 32: 35-36: "To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence;

their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is

at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. For the

LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when

he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or

left."

"There is none shut up" means there are no Christians left in jail

who were marked for persecution. "None left" means there are none of

this group left alive at some point during the Tribulation.

If Deuteronomy 32: 35-36 is interpreted to deal with God's judgment on

the Church, then it helps to explain several clear New Testament texts

which say Christians will be persecuted in the Tribulation and

mentioning the Churches perhaps being involved.

Matthew 24: 9-11 confirms judgment will happen to the "Church:" "Then

shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye

shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many

be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one

another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

Luke 21: 16 says: "And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and

brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they

cause to be put to death." "Some" has been added to the King James

English in Luke 21: 16, because the Greek word "tis", or "men",

meaning some is not in the Greek Textus Receptus, from which the KJV

is translated.

"And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates,

and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or

what ye shall say:" Luke 12: 11

The reference to synagogues is not limited to Jewish synagogues.

Synagogues is Strong's number 4864, meaning "an assemblage of persons,

a Jewish synagogue, by analogy, a Christian church, assembly,

congregation, synagogue." Sunagoge in the Greek, or synagogue,

can mean a Christian church. Magistrates probably refers to judges, to

whom Christians are brought on some kind of charge, such as blasphemy

under the Noahide laws or hate speech laws.

John 16: 2 teaches that "They shall put you out of the

synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth

you will think that he doeth God service,"

Aposunagogous here is from Strong's number 656, meaning,

"excommunicated, put out of the synagogue"

The so called protestant churches will kick Christians out of

their churches because these Christians no

longer conform to the theologies of the churches. The last

part of John 16:2 is significant, "...yea,

the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that

he doeth God service."

Then what is the teaching of Luke 17: 34-37 and Matthew 24: 28 all

about, that of two people one shall be taken and the other left? The

apostles asked Christ where they were to be taken to and he answered,

more clearly in Matthew 24: 28, "For wheresoever the carcase is, there

will be eagles be gathered together." Are the "eagles" really

vultures? The people taken are not taken in the dispensationalist

rapture before the Tribulation, but they are taken as part of the

persecution of Christians in the Tribulation which is part of the

judgment upon the apostate Church.

In Revelation 9: 19, on the Sixth Trumpet Judgment, there is a

metaphoric identification of one group who persecutes Christians at

this time. The verse says "For their power is in their mouth, and in

their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents." Christ says in

Matthew 12: 34 "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak

good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth

speaketh." Then he says in Matthew 23: 33, after clearly identifying

the group he is speaking to as the Pharisees and the scribes, "Ye

serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of

hell?"

The group who persecutes a group of Christians in Revelation 9: 19 is

not the Pharisees of Christ's day brought to the time of the

Tribulation. They are called serpents because they are Pharisee types.

They are Pharisee types within the Church who have gone extreme.

There is some information on this persecution of a group of Christians

back in Daniel 11: 33, "And they that understand among the people

shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame,

by captivity, and by spoil, many days." They that fall are those

instructed, not the ones doing the instruction.

The dispensationalists will probably say that Deuteronomy 32: 35-36 as

an Testament Scripture does not apply to the Christian Church.

Calvinists might not make that objection, but might make some other

objection.

Hebrews 10: 30: "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth

unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall

judge his people."

Then I Peter 4: 17 says "For the time is come that judgment must

begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the

end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

What do you think? Bernard In Cool Damp Ol Misery (Missouri)"